tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post7211815741401190825..comments2023-12-20T04:18:41.617-06:00Comments on The Hunting of the Snark: Save Traditional Marriage!Susan of Texashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-71749539962777566132010-08-07T19:59:13.675-05:002010-08-07T19:59:13.675-05:00India is a glorious land of contradictions. The pl...<i>India is a glorious land of contradictions. The place that sees female infanticide in some parts is also the place where entire buses are reserved for the exclusive use of women (public transportation). </i><br /><br />Yes, that's sure a ... <i>glorious</i> contradiction. "Hey, you might be killed as an infant for being a girl, but buck up! You'll get to ride in a women's only bus!<br /><br />Also: not really a contradiction. My understanding is that the reason for the women-only buses and rail cars is that women are so badly harassed by men in public that this is one of the few places they can get peace. That and female infanticide come from contempt for women. You're pointing to a band-aid as some kind of advance for women's equality that somehow offsets female infanticide.<br /><br />Also, Swayamvara didn't work out all that well for Sita, did it?zuzuhttp://kindlypogmothoin.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-54337901509786779542010-08-07T10:15:36.330-05:002010-08-07T10:15:36.330-05:00Everyone takes a step backwards except for Jonah G...Everyone takes a step backwards except for Jonah Goldberg, who is immersed in his Gameboy. <br /><br />"Sold!"Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-33792427208826443292010-08-06T17:47:37.585-05:002010-08-06T17:47:37.585-05:00"No bidders?
"Okay, everyone who wants ..."No bidders?<br /><br />"Okay, everyone who wants to marry Miss Lopez take one step forward."Roger Aileshttp://rogerailes.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-24575247902491449862010-08-06T07:45:05.276-05:002010-08-06T07:45:05.276-05:00Puts me in mind of Dryden:
"In pious times, ...Puts me in mind of Dryden:<br /><br />"In pious times, ere priestcraft did begin, <br />Before polygamy was made a sin; <br /><br />When man on many multiplied his kind, <br />Ere one to one was cursedly confined; <br /><br />When nature prompted, and no law denied <br />Promiscuous use of concubine and bride...."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-83269034672176548062010-08-05T15:53:45.821-05:002010-08-05T15:53:45.821-05:00"a tiny fraction of Americans... have an outs..."a tiny fraction of Americans... have an outsize influence all disproportionate to their actual numbers"...oh, you mean like the National Rifle Association?<br /><br /><br />"(K-Lo)selling her body to any man with a few goats or sheep..." Um, I think I'd rather have the sheep, catch my drift...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-43461583811072162352010-08-05T15:25:49.491-05:002010-08-05T15:25:49.491-05:00Well, I have travelled to India (though I don'...Well, I have travelled to India (though I don't think that means much) and I lived and worked in Nepal. And, fwiw, I'm an anthropologist and worked on women's issues in Nepal. So I'm as qualified as anyone to speak about Hindu approaches to women and women's liberties. <br /><br />You are right that dowry murders are murders, and not sanctioned by "Hinduism" which, in any event, is a large and amorphous and historically changeable entity. But the category married woman and especially the categories barren married woman, and widow, can be extremely negative in Indian culture. There are thousands of castes, and cultures, and languages in India/Nepal and so nothing anyone says about one of them can be taken to be determinative of the others. And, in addition, the muslim,c hristian, buddhist and animist communities have over time come to be seen as/function as "castes/jats" as though they were hindu in origin. And many cultural issues and themes, such as purity and pollution, and the relationship between commensality, sexuality, death, and birth have come to be seen in similar ways among these (theoretically) different religious communities. Hinduism as a way of thinking about difference is a lot bigger and more extensive than just "people who worship hindu gods." Its an entire cultural empire of thought. Not to go all Louis Dumont about things.<br /><br />But at any rate the notion of "equality" for women, when women are explicitly thought of (to the extent that this comes up) as lesser than men, ritually impure in ways that men aren't, and more or less permanently under the control of men (father, then husband, then sons) is an odd one. <br /><br />aimaiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-87686150135250032642010-08-05T15:13:50.729-05:002010-08-05T15:13:50.729-05:00Well, I suppose it comes down to how rich you are....Well, I suppose it comes down to how rich you are. As usual.StringonaSticknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-21936315007608133152010-08-05T14:52:42.921-05:002010-08-05T14:52:42.921-05:00Ouch. I meant that more tongue-in-cheek but whatev...Ouch. I meant that more tongue-in-cheek but whatever.<br /><br />First off, sati was never a religion sanctioned practice. Any more than the Salem witch trials should serve as an indictment of christianity (rather than an indictment of a particular period in Christian history) - ymmv.<br /><br />Secondly, one should not confuse murder (burning of brides for insufficient dowry) with a religious sanction - there is no sanction (or requirement) anywhere in Hinduism for that kind of cold blooded murder.<br /><br />Thirdly, the british did squat to try and get Sati banned - the movement was spearheaded by Raja Rammohan Roy. The British tried their best to sow discord between Hindus and Muslims - who had lived in relative harmony for a thousand years - by playing up the caste divisions. Even the banning of Sati was trumpeted by the British as a way to denigrate the religion.<br /><br />And unless one has traveled to India, is indian or has lived in India for quite a while, commenting on 'traditional' practices is quite risky.<br /><br />India is a glorious land of contradictions. The place that sees female infanticide in some parts is also the place where entire buses are reserved for the exclusive use of women (public transportation). The country that became prominent for dowry deaths was also one of the earliest to elect a woman as a prime minister. Even to this day, the country is being effectively run by a widow of Italian birth. The current President is a so-called untouchable woman.<br /><br />There is a lot to learn from India in how it actually treats women - versus some sensationalized fiction of how that country is a hellhole for any young woman.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-31886034545792833962010-08-05T13:56:47.109-05:002010-08-05T13:56:47.109-05:00Oh, and as for Anonymous up above, praising hindui...Oh, and as for Anonymous up above, praising hinduism for Swayamvara is like praising Christianity for Chuck and Di's wedding. Choice is, and always has been, more or less absent from Hindu marriages--at least from the girl's point of view. And the consequences of divorce or widowhood are absolutely hideous to contemplate. This has nothing to do with Islam or with the British. The British, of course, famously tried to stop the upper class/brahmanic practise of Sutti in which the wife is forced to kill herself on her husband's pyre. But the abandonment of widows and the dowry deaths of brides goes on *to this day* in India.<br /><br />aimaiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-87127346863610154582010-08-05T13:53:01.965-05:002010-08-05T13:53:01.965-05:00To me the most interesting thing in the piece is t...To me the most interesting thing in the piece is the assertion that gay rights activists/people who want equal marriage are a "tiny minority." If that were true, what would be the harm in allowing them to choose to get married? Lets just imagine that instead of "gay people" you put in "population of tiny, tiny, tiny town in the middle of nowhere." If the people of that tiny town in the middle of nowhere, less than 1 percent of the country, decided to run amok and do something the rest of us disapproved of *with each other* would it really destroy the country? What's the mechanism? Contagion? But the right wing argument is that the whole idea of gay marriage is so absud it can't spread by contagion--its rejected by all right thinking people and right thinking people are a majority (that's how you know they are right) even if a silent majority. <br /><br />Well, six impossible things before breakfast, I suppose.<br /><br />aimaiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-82769663623126433182010-08-05T13:41:53.515-05:002010-08-05T13:41:53.515-05:00Ha! Silly me.Ha! Silly me.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-9101917088241300702010-08-05T13:37:27.181-05:002010-08-05T13:37:27.181-05:00Oh Susan, you and your wacky ideas! Everyone know...Oh Susan, you and your wacky ideas! Everyone knows KLo's FATHER has to auction her off, she can't do it herself!tigrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00685093476177441655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-51974622213493700842010-08-05T12:52:19.656-05:002010-08-05T12:52:19.656-05:00"Gay-marriage advocates have a well-organized..."Gay-marriage advocates have a well-organized grassroots movement they’ve built over the years."<br /><br />Interesting. I thought they had the HRC, which is lukewarm at best.<br /><br />"Conservatives tend to rely on spontaneous mass uprising."<br /><br />Which is, of course, why all those anti-gay marriage statements were released spontaneously yesterday by Focus on the Family, Concerned Women for America, the Family Research Council, Liberty Counsel, Alliance Defense Fund, Capitol Resource Institute, American Family Association, Traditional Values Coalition, National Organization for Marriage, and the American Principles Project, to name just the few cited <a href="http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/right-wing-reactions-prop-8-decision" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Not to mention Newt "every marriage is sacred; otherwise, I wouldn't cheat with my next wife" Gingrich and several others.Ken Houghtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01440837287933536370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-64826389331149332132010-08-05T12:47:56.957-05:002010-08-05T12:47:56.957-05:00Funny thing is ... of all the religions, Hinduism ...Funny thing is ... of all the religions, Hinduism is the only one that always had equality for women - witness the ancient practice of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swayamvara" rel="nofollow"> Swayamvara </a> ... until the Islamic rulers and the British colonists showed up to ruin it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com