tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post8516959042752466552..comments2023-12-20T04:18:41.617-06:00Comments on The Hunting of the Snark: There Is Always More To LoseSusan of Texashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-70593208170502649192012-10-05T05:33:01.947-05:002012-10-05T05:33:01.947-05:00Nicely and tersely said, Susan. I have been revil...Nicely and tersely said, Susan. I have been reviled by a number of Obama supporters who have fallen under the influence of the Fear Button, and refuse to see that anything and everything is reason to not criticize. I've been called a Judas, a Romney supporter, a Communist, and a sociopath for daring to challenge the actions and remarks of Mr. Hold-My-Feet-To-The-Fire.<br /><br />Sad, isn't it? A Dem president is dismantling so many of the traditional alliances and goals of the Dem Party from previous years, and Dems are unwilling to challenge any of this because of Big!Bad!GOP.<br />Barry Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-59779398019539994262012-10-04T20:15:08.670-05:002012-10-04T20:15:08.670-05:00One of the obstacles to Nirvana is that the AssPre...One of the obstacles to Nirvana is that the AssPress filters out meaning in the national news printed in local newspapers - http://downpuppy.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-day-in-death-of-joe-newspaper.htmlDownpuppyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312490198813632190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-35530118767087914592012-10-04T15:14:07.180-05:002012-10-04T15:14:07.180-05:00Do you actually think that ignoring half of what I...Do you actually think that ignoring half of what I said exposes my hypocrisy?<br /><br />Yeah, you're right. I said that everyone else was immoral for saying vote for Obama while I was saying the same thing.<br /><br />And I didn't say that these same people refused to pressure Democrats and Obama to move left, which is our moral obligation and in our best interest. <br /><br />A hypocrite is a person who claims to be moral yet votes for the immoral. Pointing out that we are acting immorally and must change as soon as we can doesn't make me the hypocrite. <br /><br />Nobody gets to feel good about this because the situation stinks and it's our own fault for not sticking up for our rights when our leaders trampled them in the pursuit of power and wealth.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-58325985375819069232012-10-04T12:38:52.200-05:002012-10-04T12:38:52.200-05:00So let me see if I've got this right. Obama s...So let me see if I've got this right. Obama sucks, but we should go ahead and vote for him anyway because keeping the Rs out of office is a good thing. But other people who are saying "vote Obama, because Romney's worse" are abetting abusers? Retiefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-63088511822765004262012-10-03T16:58:10.466-05:002012-10-03T16:58:10.466-05:00So far I have read in one comment section that we ...So far I have read in one comment section that we don't have to worry about social security because there won't be any cuts and if there are any cuts they will the right kind of cuts. <br /><br />I expect there will be a great deal more of this, in an ever-narrowing gyre of wonk.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-55469731425034413632012-10-03T16:48:57.885-05:002012-10-03T16:48:57.885-05:00No Kris, it's a characterization based on ever...No Kris, it's a characterization based on every election since at least 1980, many people come out and say you gotta vote for our guy even though he may not be perfect. Then if elected keep excusing the pre-election problems. What you have already posted here puts you into that classification.<br /><br />Also the only on here telling people how they must vote is you. Authoritarian liberals like you and the LGM crowd have caused far more problems than the Nader voters that supposedly owed theur vote to Gore.Bill Murraynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-10777279336256658492012-10-02T19:41:00.846-05:002012-10-02T19:41:00.846-05:00It's like I never said go ahead and vote for O...It's like I never said go ahead and vote for Obama. Three times.<br /><br />I just refused to say it was okay. It isn't okay, but it has to be done. And I said we need to fight for our values afterwards, but I am beginning to realize that most people are perfectly fine with their values staying just the way the are.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-38114554386312079412012-10-02T16:45:29.528-05:002012-10-02T16:45:29.528-05:00You say I'm a "very recognizable characte...You say I'm a "very recognizable character," but that's a shallow stereotype based solely on the fact that I have the nerve to point out the weaknesses and inconsistencies in your position. You people know absolutely nothing about me, what I have done in the past four years (or ever,) or what I actually believe and I don't see any point in wasting my time telling you. You have not responded to any of my substantive points, are clearly not going to, and I'm tired of trying to engage with you. So, you folks go ahead with your self-righteous rants and casting of stones, stay home in November or vote for Ralph Nader (or the 2012 equivalent,) whatever, but don't be surprised if I and others just tell you to STFU if Romney wins and/or the Republicans take control of the Senate. But wait a minute, yeah, that'll really show me how it doesn't make any difference who you vote for, won't it?Kris Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-37732669123227700762012-10-02T11:06:14.311-05:002012-10-02T11:06:14.311-05:00Are you sure I would not be betraying my morals by...Are you sure I would not be betraying my morals by ignoring the whole question of morality just to snark at McArdle?<br /><br />Oh who am I kidding.<br /><br />It's clobbering time.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-81652664531100052632012-10-02T11:04:25.740-05:002012-10-02T11:04:25.740-05:00http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/01/t...http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/01/the-benefits-of-business-experience.html<br />mcargle bargle new!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-44195880814879065102012-10-01T14:25:21.878-05:002012-10-01T14:25:21.878-05:00Kris C. is a very recognizable character: every t...Kris C. is a very recognizable character: every two to four years, we hear "vote vote vote" but in the meantime it's temporizing and excuses for the criminal behavior of Our Team's Guy.<br /><br />Kris C., we'll see you in the streest at the next Occupy protest, right? We'll see you trying to primary Dems who drift right, right?<br /><br />If not, check your own stool for sparkle.DocAmazingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-78336824833528360462012-10-01T06:43:16.029-05:002012-10-01T06:43:16.029-05:00You have stated you will vote for Obama despite hi...You have stated you will vote for Obama despite his flaws. You do not state but it is fair to conclude that you will not fight yourself, unless it is against people like me.<br /><br />The first step will be fighting those who share you values yet who won't speak out against their own side. <br /><br />If you really wanted improvement you would say okay, Obama stinks and we have a long hard fight ahead of us. Let's vote and then get started. But no, it's sparkle ponies and shitting glitter and purity troll. <br /><br />I don't tell anyone how to vote. It's not my choice, it's theirs. I said that repeatedly. I would not discuss the voting at all if everyone had not said the same thing at the primaries. When Obama wins everyone will be very happy and immediately start telling everyone to shut up because the right is worse and Roe v Wade. They will do nothing but make excuses when Obama starts cutting social security and Medicare. They will say he had no choice.<br /><br />Go ahead, vote for the man terrorizing women and children, the instigator of the cat food commission, the friend of the banks. You will have lots of company. But don't pretend that you will fight later when you won't fight now. You are arguing back against me. Join me and argue against them.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-16291336443655172052012-10-01T01:02:59.100-05:002012-10-01T01:02:59.100-05:00A protest vote is never a wasted vote? It doesn&#...A protest vote is never a wasted vote? It doesn't matter who you vote for on the national level? Are you effing kidding me???? I've been hearing this crap since 1968 and it's just as stupid now as it was then. Tricky Dick Nixon, a paranoid, criminal, racist war-monger was no different and no worse than Gene McCarthy or George McGovern, check. Jimmy Carter was a terrible president, Reagan wasn't really any different, check. Certainly, in 2000, there was no difference at all between Al Gore and George Bush, so what the hell, why not prove to myself (and all my friends) how "moral" I am and vote for Ralph Nader? Damn!!! As far as I am concerned, people who voted for Nader or stayed home in 2000 got exactly what they asked for and even wanted and have no right to complain about the 8 years of Bush's incompetence. Similarly, anybody who doesn't work to elect Obama and the down-ticket Democrats, despite their flaws, or, worse, stays home or votes for some "protest" candidate is asking for and deserves exactly what they get if Romney and Ryan are elected. I'm just really pissed that because of your so-called "morality" you think it doesn't matter if you inflict those assholes on the rest of us. Oh, and Romney, Ryan, the Tea Party Congress, and new Supreme Court Justice Janice Rogers Brown will go out of their way to let us all just "start over from the bottom." Good God!Kris Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-15317670387975799242012-09-30T22:26:15.143-05:002012-09-30T22:26:15.143-05:00"A protest vote is a wasted vote."
It i..."A protest vote is a wasted vote."<br /><br />It is never - <i>never</i> - a "waste" to vote for what you actually believe in.<br /><br />Bottom line for me: At some point, voting for the lesser of evils (and yes, voting for someone because "God forbid" the other side should win is doing precisely that) <i>must</i> move over into <i>not</i> voting for them because they are just not good enough. Otherwise, we condemn ourselves to perpetually shrinking options, to a future where the best we can shoot for, the best we hope for, is for things to get worse more slowly than they otherwise might.<br /><br />Put it this way: If we say we will vote for Obama (or any future Dem) no matter what, why shouldn't the Dems keep moving to the right? Where is our supposed leverage? Where is our fantasized clout? What use is there to the cries of "vote now, protest later" - a later that never seems to come - when those protest can be simply ignored (except to be called "retarded" by presidential assistants) <i>because they know you will support them anyway?</i>Lotushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774266443353774752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-19519128880982155082012-09-30T09:32:42.219-05:002012-09-30T09:32:42.219-05:00We Americans did not stop this assault on our righ...We Americans did not stop this assault on our rights and now that it has been successful we are not going to get what we want. It's too late and a lot of people warned us that this time would come. Simply casting a vote is no longer enough. It doesn't matter who we vote for on the national level. <br /><br />Where was everyone when the stock market was booming and house prices soaring and we were getting tax cuts and going off to war? Liberal leaders went along with all this too. We reelected Clinton although he helped take away our economic safeguards. We will reelect Obama despite his support for the banks that enabled a massive transfer of wealth. Under these circumstances how could we possibly expect to get what we want?<br /><br />I hear nothing but protests that Obama can't do what we want, that presidents are powerless, like a clerk, that we don't have the votes to pass legislation or that the legislation we did pass was more important. There was little attempt to get what we want.<br /><br />We had the set-up, laws changed and eliminated. We had the follow through, when wars were conducted and money skimmed off. Then we had the repercussions, when the bubbles burst and lots of people died. Now we ask what we can do to get what we want?<br /><br />We got what we wanted. We just don't like it anymore. <br /><br />Now we have to start over from the bottom. <br /><br /><br /><br />Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-46521511105587001302012-09-29T22:07:37.676-05:002012-09-29T22:07:37.676-05:00Thanks for taking my questions seriously and not w...Thanks for taking my questions seriously and not writing me off as a troll since that is certainly not what I think I am or intend to be. I also appreciate the clarification. I'm not sure, though, that a throwaway remark in the comment thread (the throwaway tone is probably why I missed it, sorry) to "by all means, vote for Obama" is the same as taking a real position on the problem. And I'm not talking about the moral aspect, since what I think we're talking about here, at least what I'm talking about is the concrete, practical question of what is the best way for us as progressives (or, as I prefer, given my somewhat advanced age, us liberals) to get what we want. As for the second issue, I disagree that (most) Americans aren't interested in giving as opposed to taking. That's a rather Romneyesque point of view, don't you think? In fact, isn't that pretty much the opposite of what you and some of the others are accusing people like Digby of doing, i.e., giving it away to the ungrateful political establishment? Kris Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-7424215375058292862012-09-29T12:29:56.515-05:002012-09-29T12:29:56.515-05:00Vote? Don't vote?
"By all means, vote fo...<i>Vote? Don't vote?</i><br /><br />"By all means, vote for him. I want the Rs out of office forever."<br /><br /><i>Stop trying because it's all hopeless anyway and it's really stupid to work to advance our cause without getting paid by those ungrateful bastards? Maybe revolution?</i><br /><br />"I know we need to band together to help each other and increase our power but I'm not sure how to go about it. We need organizations but let's face it, Americans aren't very much in favor of giving instead of taking."<br /><br /><br />Since I have said that I think it's okay to vote for Obama (not that anyone needs my permission or asks for it) I have to wonder if people are trying to get me to say that it's moral to vote for Obama. It isn't. Most people don't care about that, which is their right. But they aren't going to get absolultion from the sparkle pony brigade. You bought it, you own it.<br /><br />If people admit that Obama has not represented them--he does not give us things, he either represents us or he does not--then they can either shrug and admit that they just want to be on the winning team or they can pressure Obama to represent them. <br /><br />If people refuse to admit that Obama is not representing them they will refuse to pressure him to change. That is why people like me insist on reminding everyone what Obama does and does not do. Denial leads to inaction and complicity.<br /><br />But you say you want to act. So the obvious next step is to choose change from within or without. The authoritarians will always choose change from within whether it is effective or not. If it isn't they just use denial. Others will not use denial but simply don't know how to overthrow the massive amount of power and resources that we are up against.<br /><br />So what do we do next? Get more power and resources. How, when we have so little money and power? The only power we have is numbers. <br /><br />How do we get more numbers? Convince people to band together in a show of force. But they won't, because they are in denial and refuse to admit that they are not being represented and will not band together, either to pressure their representitives or form new organization.<br /><br />So the first thing you do is make denial impossible by telling the truth until they no longer can hide from it.<br /><br />There will come a time when the tipping point is reached, when enough leaders and/or followers abandon their old positions and accept the new one. I saw this with Megan McArdle; it truly was remarkable. Many of us slogged along for years criticizing her, and then the Koch/McArdle SHAME article came out and suddenly the conventional wisdom was that McArdle was a dishonest hack.<br /><br />We have more leaders criticizing Obama now, questioning what he'll do with SS, pointing out the effect of his actions on the rest of the world. This is not to get rid of Obama, it is to address the very real problems we must deal with.<br /><br />Leaders come and go. Problems stick around until you solve them or set up a system for keeping them under control. If we want to act we will have to change hearts and minds first.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-28750874179394237892012-09-29T11:42:09.005-05:002012-09-29T11:42:09.005-05:00Sorry, I don't think you do. What I read is a...Sorry, I don't think you do. What I read is a list of complaints, some of which I agree with, some I think are over the top, but you don't end up anywhere with them. I'd really like to know what you think the answer is. Vote? Don't vote? Stop trying because it's all hopeless anyway and it's really stupid to work to advance our cause without getting paid by those ungrateful bastards? Maybe revolution? Kris Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-2238149837778395952012-09-29T07:56:10.633-05:002012-09-29T07:56:10.633-05:00Perhaps you should read them because I specificall...Perhaps you should read them because I specifically tell my point.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-61692451378976138282012-09-29T00:55:11.895-05:002012-09-29T00:55:11.895-05:00I've skimmed the comments, they don't seem...I've skimmed the comments, they don't seem to answer my initial response to this post, i.e., ". . . and your point is?"Kris Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-42415626416584947692012-09-28T17:37:25.900-05:002012-09-28T17:37:25.900-05:00 Thanks a lot, Ralph Thanks a lot, RalphTheophrastus Bombastus von Hoehenheim den Sidstenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-30656281878331737562012-09-28T17:30:14.027-05:002012-09-28T17:30:14.027-05:00I'll do a post on that Leftsplaining post tomo...I'll do a post on that Leftsplaining post tomorrow. <br /><br />We can disagree without insulting each other. We really do not want to open that can of worms because we are all a little too good at it. <br /><br />Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-74730502566535358702012-09-28T15:02:55.811-05:002012-09-28T15:02:55.811-05:00Honestly, to a very real extent I am.
Calling civi...Honestly, to a very real extent I am.<br />Calling civilians combatants is repugnant but as old as war crimes.<br />I also consider being President to essentially make one guilty of being a war criminal, with the black and darker ops of the CIA and agencies that don't exist still being his responsibility even if he doesn't know, so that Obama is one doesn't make him any worse, or better, than anyone else who could inhabit the office.<br />I'm not defending any of what Obama has done, I'm saying that at the real level we don't know what he's done. It infuriates me, too, but it's not about whistleblowing, it's about the dark side of empire.<br />And fuck me for having to sound like Chomsky, I apologize for that. I have no conspiracy theories to advance, merely a deep rooted lack of belief in what the headlines say.<br /><br />(version 2.0, now featuring editing)bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06907349163323395529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-15452698442435723052012-09-28T15:01:18.428-05:002012-09-28T15:01:18.428-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06907349163323395529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-6594662731162151532012-09-28T14:46:52.156-05:002012-09-28T14:46:52.156-05:00And I don't know whether Obama has personally ...<i>And I don't know whether Obama has personally made the drone wars and civil liberty violations worse, less harmful, or if he hasn't intervened at all.</i><br /><br />I find this difficult to believe, brad.<br /><br />Who has charged more journalists and whistle blowers with espionage than any other president?<br /><br />In how many countries are we blowing up people with our killer robots now?<br /><br />Who redefined the word "militant" to <i>reduce innocent civilian causalities</i>?<br /><br />You aren't suggesting that the CIA, Department of Justice, and Defense Department are operating under the people Obama has appointed, but nonetheless remain beyond his control, are you?<br />~ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©https://www.blogger.com/profile/06252371815131259831noreply@blogger.com