tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post4612827353102813842..comments2023-12-20T04:18:41.617-06:00Comments on The Hunting of the Snark: Same Old Same OldSusan of Texashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-71107195099894865222015-08-29T07:13:44.980-05:002015-08-29T07:13:44.980-05:00Haidt's work has value when sticks solely to d...<i>Haidt's work has value when sticks solely to descriptive stuff (although some of that's problematic, too)</i><br /><br />Some of it has value, and some is original, but never both at once.Smut Clydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409476490132867809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-85252306329185596422015-08-28T12:55:10.700-05:002015-08-28T12:55:10.700-05:00Thanks Batocchio. I read a couple of his papers an...Thanks Batocchio. I read a couple of his papers and found the information he gathered to be very interesting but his interpretation of the data sometimes made no sense. <br /><br />I read your link. Good heavens. <br /><br /><i>Morality is the glue, he answers. Humans are 90-percent chimp, but also 10-percent bee—evolved to bind together for the good of the hive. A big part of Haidt's moral narrative is faith. He lays out the case that religion is an evolutionary adaptation for binding people into groups and enabling those units to better compete against other groups. Through faith, humans developed the "psychology of sacredness," the notion that "some people, objects, days, words, values, and ideas are special, set apart, untouchable, and pure." If people revere the same sacred objects, he writes, they can trust one another and cooperate toward larger goals. But morality also blinds them to arguments from beyond their group.</i><br /><br />I guess that's why the right is so trusting and cooperative with each other.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-7050526152486516742015-08-28T12:36:45.772-05:002015-08-28T12:36:45.772-05:00Is he really that naïve or is he just scamming? Ho...<i>Is he really that naïve or is he just scamming? How could someone as educated as he take everyone at their word?</i><br /><br />I wonder that, too, and I think it's a bit of both. I think he's worked desperately to believe it. It's also a power move -- he can pretend he's above politics and criticize others, but they can't criticize him. He can position himself as always the teacher, never the student or an equal. <br /><br />(<a href="http://chronicle.com/article/Jonathan-Haidt-Decodes-the/130453/" rel="nofollow">Here's</a> the piece I was thinking of, although apparently he's expounded on Palin elsewhere.)<br /><br />And you basically called it earlier -- a central tenet of "both sides do it," very serious centrist, and "liberals are worse" crowds (which have some overlap) is to take conservative bullshit at face value and to troll anyone who calls it out. I don't think all of them actually believe it, but that's the way they play the game. (Obviously I'm not saying areas of bipartisan corruption don't exist, but these crowds aren't really making those arguments; they're just trying to shut down criticism of conservatives.) <br /><br />I'll have to dig up my copy of <i>The Righteous Mind</i> (I read a library copy, took notes, then bought a used copy because I didn't want to send Haidt more money). For two pages or so, he slightly alludes to conservative racism without ever taking it head-on (and he doesn't discuss the very deliberate Southern strategy and why specifically the parties realigned). Acknowledging bigotry as a central strain of conservative history would directly challenge his message of conservative moral superiority. <br /><br />Like I said, I find some of his work has value, which is why it's frustrating to see how quickly it turns to ignorance and/or trolling plus sanctimony.Batocchiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02193752396025012825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-66407674575614477942015-08-28T11:10:27.819-05:002015-08-28T11:10:27.819-05:00"he criticized liberals for rejecting Sarah P..."he criticized liberals for rejecting Sarah Palin as a credible critic of corporate power" <br /><br />Is he really that naïve or is he just scamming? How could someone as educated as he take everyone at their word? Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-10099834025159969712015-08-27T02:03:51.311-05:002015-08-27T02:03:51.311-05:00He's a liberal purely for the purposes of conc...<i>He's a liberal purely for the purposes of concern trolling. He manages to remain in ignorance of 40-odd years of research into value systems, which must take some effort, no wonder McArdle admires him.</i><br /><br />Yup, although I find McArdle much more annoying. On the concern trolling point, there's McMegan's whole shtick of claiming to be pro-choice while arguing for anti-choice positions and remaining completely ignorant of standard pro-choice arguments. It's an attempt to deflect criticism. But both of them like to present themselves as independent thinkers (hahaha). <br />Batocchiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02193752396025012825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-59234442679470140052015-08-26T05:24:03.728-05:002015-08-26T05:24:03.728-05:00Haidt ... was never truly a liberal, even if he de...<i>Haidt ... was never truly a liberal, even if he describes his former self as one. </i><br /><br />He's a liberal purely for the purposes of concern trolling. He manages to remain in ignorance of 40-odd years of research into value systems, which must take some effort, no wonder McArdle admires him.Smut Clydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409476490132867809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-85238504414322945002015-08-26T02:21:29.458-05:002015-08-26T02:21:29.458-05:00Yeah, I'm with Smut Clyde on this one. I'...Yeah, I'm with Smut Clyde on this one. I've read Haidt's book <i>The Righteous Mind</i>, many of his scientific papers, and caught numerous interviews and talks. Haidt's work has value when sticks solely to descriptive stuff (although some of that's problematic, too), but he quickly turns to addled and sanctimonious treacle, unfortunately. For example, to exalt the moral superiority of conservatives, he ignores core political history such as the Southern strategy, and wide swaths of philosophy, social science, political science, and needless to say, policy and its effects. He also makes some astoundingly illogical assertions for someone with a doctorate. (Social psychology prof John Jost is one of Haidt's most insightful critics.) McArdle actually (!) makes some valid criticisms of Haidt, although as usual plenty of her other arguments are problematic. <br /><br />Haidt claims he started as a Clinton Democrat; he was never truly a liberal, even if he describes his former self as one. He tells a conversion story of seeing the value of conservatism (partially from becoming immersed in a foreign patriarchal culture). Haidt has expressed admiration for libertarians and buys their hype that they're outside the usual system. There's <i>some</i> truth to that (Haidt and his colleagues have a paper on it), but they largely ignore the whole glaring plutocratic shill and self-interest angles, among many other things. Haidt mostly likes to posit himself as apart from politics and partisanship, but is a pretty standard (right of center) Very Serious Establishment Centrist who scolds liberals. For a few examples, he endorsed the right-of-center, entitlement-hostile No Labels group as being outside usual politics, he criticized liberals for rejecting Sarah Palin as a credible critic of corporate power (in one of her ghost-written Facebook posts) and argued that the solutions to health care reform were free market approaches while rejecting out of hand superior foreign results. He often takes conservatives at face value, too, and accepts their ridiculous characterizations of basic social democracy and mixed economy policies as communism. (I've been meaning to write a post on him, but it could be a damn book.)<br /><br />For what it's worth, I've heard his book <i>The Happiness Hypothesis</i> is actually pretty good, but unfortunately he's made his career peddling some painful and occasionally harmful bullshit.Batocchiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02193752396025012825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-63835655507704766762015-08-25T21:19:33.744-05:002015-08-25T21:19:33.744-05:00Skinny Little Boy From Cleveland, Ohio: An Irish g...Skinny Little Boy From Cleveland, Ohio: An Irish girl who doesn't think of making hash should be ashamed. <br /><br />Smut Clyde: I love the way he takes libertarians at their word. (I think he is one but I would have to check to be sure.) Yeah, it's all about liberty, even though he also says the prime motivating factor for libertarians is a dislike of being told what to do.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-53785493706593081812015-08-25T18:01:17.449-05:002015-08-25T18:01:17.449-05:00she ignores most of what Haidt says
Admittedly, s...<i>she ignores most of what Haidt says</i><br /><br />Admittedly, so do I, because he's an ill-informed git.Smut Clydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409476490132867809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-12287160217237182252015-08-25T16:21:05.983-05:002015-08-25T16:21:05.983-05:00the food advice is ludicrous. She says buy big the...the food advice is ludicrous. She says buy big then complains roasts are impractical (duh you make stew, sandwiches, etc. out of them) crockpots are too big. Crockpots come in all sizes from seemingly too small to be useful for anything other than brewing a cup of tea to enormous. Freezers are pretty impractical for a lot of people--my relatives who had them also had large houses and still stuck them in the garage because they were otherwise impractical to put in the kitchen. Meal planning is pretty simple for one person and I rarely throughout any produce. OTOH, she's have us eating eggs all the time, which just sounds awful.<br /><br />In the end, she wants to tell us how to live, as long as we share her complaints, shortcomings, and bad habits.Skinny Little Boy from Cleveland, Ohiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04360441752575669061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-41077853291368869572015-08-25T09:07:56.671-05:002015-08-25T09:07:56.671-05:00It's especially funny because she ignores most...It's especially funny because she ignores most of what Haidt says to cherry pick anything that she thinks will make her look good.Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-74985041269849996132015-08-25T06:17:36.824-05:002015-08-25T06:17:36.824-05:00[...E]ither that many more men than women want to ...<i>[...E]ither that many more men than women want to cheat</i><br />...Note the assumption here that there is no way to conduct an affair except by paying a feckin' website. McArdle is evidently convinced that extramarital sex did not exist until internet entrepreneurs created the opportunity. Where would we be without their beneficient ingenuity?<br /><br /><i>I'm an enormous fan of Jonathan Haidt's work. </i><br />I am completely unsurprised.Smut Clydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409476490132867809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-9958442615115755532015-08-24T12:25:17.184-05:002015-08-24T12:25:17.184-05:00Very true. What is occupying the time of our heroi...Very true. What is occupying the time of our heroine? Besides pretending she is not watching her portfolio tank.<br /><br />Susan of Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00076915322771385454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2222630007427380394.post-54738667741639442652015-08-24T12:10:07.819-05:002015-08-24T12:10:07.819-05:00Her link about liberals guessing wrong on incarcer...Her link about liberals guessing wrong on incarceration figures goes to a Megan post with no incarceration figures, much less any evidence regarding who has them wrong. <br /><br />Not. Even. Trying.<br /><br />Downpuppyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312490198813632190noreply@blogger.com